Author Topic: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news  (Read 10272 times)

keithsnell

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2010, 08:34:07 AM »
Hi Jaime,

You asked, "why prefer a lower DR with ISO higher than 100 when there's no benefit?"  I think the key to the answer is "when there is no benefit."  The simple example posted on DPreview demonstrated that there is a benefit to selecting a higher ISO in camera.  The camera (or manufacturer software) knows to apply different processing to a higher ISO image to obtain optimum results.  Right now you can't gain these benefits from exposing lower and pushing in post.

There is also the matter of color fidelity that we didn't bother covering in that post on DPreview.   Iliah has said many times in the past that color fidelity of sensors is not linear.  That's one of the reasons he recommends no more than a 2.5 stop push.  (He alluded to this in the post, but didn't actually come out and say it.)  While it may be possible to compensate for the color fidelity issues in the raw processor push, the software is currently not optimized to do so. 

The bottom line is that people are trying to use the sensor in a way that the system was not designed to operate.  Their frustration I believe, is that Nikon (Canon, etc.) might now have the capability to design the system to work as an "ISO-less" system; however, Nikon, et al have chosen not to do so.  (i.e, they haven't made their methods of optimizing the high ISO images public, or available to other software developers, of which by the way, Iliah is one.)  With just a "simple" improvement in software, these folks  believe they can have this magical ISO-less system.  I think Iliah has cautioned that it might take more than a "simple" adjustment in software.

I hope this helps explain my thoughts a bit more?

Keith


girod

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2010, 11:23:56 AM »
Thanks Keith. I guess until proven otherwise and further development in camera's UI's and raw-converter softwares, exposure based on film paradigm is still the best approach for digital photography.

Chris

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2010, 01:46:17 PM »
I'm even more excited about it since I have started reading about it. Should make my newbie mistakes easier to fix in post.  ;D

I still plan to try to get my exposure right(or at least close) in camera because I don't like to edit them. Mostly because I don't really know what I'm doing so it takes a long time with trial and error. I have learned that with my current camera, most pictures need a boost in contrast and lower brightness so thats all I do other than crop and/or resize. I'm limited anyway because it records jpegs.

That reminds me...
Keith, I tried the hack to enable raw on my camera. It was more trouble than it was worth to me. It's not a regular Canon raw format so it's was hard to find something that would open it. The menu's were difficult to navigate too.

My D7000 will be here tomorrow morning and I can't wait! It's really bad because I know it's been in town since friday evening. lol
The manual i downloaded would be a lot more interesting if the camera were in my hands.  :D

keithsnell

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2010, 02:10:52 PM »
Hi Jaime,

Well, I 'm not so sure I go as far as to say the "film paradigm" is still the best approach.  I think there is a middle ground.  I advocate for underexposing where necessary to preserve important highlights, and then bringing up the shadows and mid tones as needed in post processing.  I just don't think it is a good idea to go overboard with push processing when you don't need to.  

Each sensor/camera combination is different, and a diligent photographer will try to understand the characteristics of their sensor in order to maximize the quality of the output.  Some cameras (D2X for example) have a very step drop in dynamic range as the ISO goes up.  Other cameras (D700 and D3 for example, and D3s even more so) have a relatively flat slope at the lower end of the ISO scale where dynamic range doesn't drop appreciably until you reach a certain "break point" where DR available becomes less than the DR of a "normal" photographic scene.  For the D700 or D3, this is around ISO 1600, for the D3S closer to 3200.  This means I can raise my ISO without loosing significant dynamic range until I reach that "break point."  (It's not really a "break point" since the slope is fairly flat for these cameras, but more a point at which I have to become conscious of the dynamic range I am losing by raising the ISO.  (For the D7000, this point is somewhere between ISO 800 and ISO 1600.)

So, accepting "less" dynamic range (from the higher ISO) is not a bad thing, if I don't need that dynamic range to begin with.  This especially true if raising the ISO helps me to avoid quantization or banding effects, or helps me to preserve color fidelity (or just generally makes my post-processing workflow easier).

Does my thought process make sense to you?

Keith

P.S.
It's interesting to note that if we truly had an "ISO-less" camera, then we would loose one of our tools for understanding sensor performance at specific ISOs.  It's very interesting that Bobn2, who is currently one of the strongest advocates for an "ISO-less" camera uses ISO as the horizontal axis on all of his charts for characterizing sensor performance.  If the camera manufacturers were to truly produce a camera without ISO controls (or insight into the ISO that the image was captured at), then how would we chart the sensor performance? :)  (We could still do it using EV, or lumens, or another measurement of light intensity, but that's not the current way we think about exposure.)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 02:56:21 PM by keithsnell »

girod

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2010, 08:41:05 PM »
That's how I shoot with my D700 for almost just a year now - ISO 800 for Zones 1 to 6 lights (and for i-ttl flash), ISO 200 for Zones 1 to 7 (or beginning of Zone VIII); maximum at ISO 1600 if deeper DOF and/or faster shutter speed is/are needed; push up to 2 - 2.5EV in CNX2 (Exposure Compensation slider and/or Master Brightness curve in LCH) as needed for my taste.

Thanks also Keith for making so much sense too in dpreview: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1018&thread=36912461
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 09:56:13 PM by girod »

girod

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2010, 09:04:06 PM »
Chris,

The more reason that you should always shoot raw (NEF files) with your D7000, so when you become more comfortable with NEF conversion and postprocessing - you will always have a bigger data to manipulate when you come back to those images. I for one, now appreciate more what I have captured when I started postprocessing more.

Have a very good night sleep now because you will have a lot less, starting tomorrow when you have gotten hold of your D7000.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 09:22:57 PM by girod »

Chris

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Number 1
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2010, 12:33:50 PM »
First pic from the D7000 with 18-105 kit lens.

Chris

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2010, 12:56:57 PM »
With the 50mm f1.4. A mode , high speed. This was the last of a 10 shot burst. Man this thing is fast. I can tell already, I'm going to love the 50mm. I can also tell I have a lot to learn.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 01:06:24 PM by Chris »

keithsnell

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2010, 01:28:45 PM »
It will be interesting to see how the 50mm handles bokeh (out of focus rendering) when shot closer to your subject in a typical portrait fashion.  The out of focus areas in this shot are a little more "edgy" than I prefer, but might smooth out if the subject is closer.

Keith

P.S.
Yes, I think you're going to have a lot of fun!

Chris

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2010, 03:55:19 PM »
I'll play with it and try to get some more examples posted later today. I have class tonight though.

I set it to raw+jpg, put my 8gb card in slot 1 and 4gb in slot 2. Should work out ok since the nefs are more than twice the file size of the jpegs.

I discovered that Picasa opens the nef files.
ViewNX2 seems to be pretty decent software so far. Don't think I'll be in a huge hurry to change but I can get student price on photoshop and lightroom. Might be worth it.

prairiedust

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2010, 08:21:32 PM »
Congratulations on the new camera. It's going to be a great creative instrument, and I'm really looking forward to your posts here.
Dave Leiker (PrairieDust)
Exploring the Rural Midwest

Chris

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2010, 09:06:35 PM »
Thanks Dave. I hope I can learn to use it well.

Chris

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2010, 01:21:37 PM »
A few more things.

I have changed from raw + jpg to just raw. I see now that large memory cards are useful. I could put thousands of jpegs on the 8GB card but only a little over 200 nef. I can get about 350 using both cards. It's quick and easy to make jpegs anyway.

I had some trouble with viewnx crashing but a reboot seems to have cleared it up for now. I was looking at the help menu in viewnx and there was a link to CaptureNX trial. I have only played with it for a few minutes but I have already found a few features that view doesn't seem to have. I may have to upgrade. The trial doesn't seem to have any trouble with D7000 files.

I found another reason to try to get the exposure right in camera. View and Capture both only seem to allow + or - 2EV for exposure compensation. I assume you could save a copy at say +2 then open that copy and raise it another 2 and so on. I havent tried it but that seems silly anyway.  :D

I stuck the sb900 on the camera lastnight. seems to work really well in full auto mode. I'll work on learning to use the flash once I learn to use the camera.  ;D The built in flash does it's job ok but bouncing it off the ceiling is nice, lights up the whole room. Glad I got the sb900. I didn't get to try it off camera. I might try that tonight.

keithsnell

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2010, 02:24:06 PM »
A few more things.

I have changed from raw + jpg to just raw. I see now that large memory cards are useful. I could put thousands of jpegs on the 8GB card but only a little over 200 nef. I can get about 350 using both cards. It's quick and easy to make jpegs anyway.

Yup, I think most folks discover that.  Like you said, it's easy enough to make jpegs if and when you need them.

You will find that the estimate of number of NEFs that will fit on a card is "conservative."  The estimate is based on a conservative estimate of how much space each compressed file will need.  Many images need less space than this conservative estimate, and so you will find that although the "initial estimate" might be only 200 images, you'll probably get closer to 300 before the card is full, especially if most shots are at a lower ISO.  (Because of the way files are processed and stored, higher ISO images will take more space.)  But like you said earlier "storage is cheap."

I found another reason to try to get the exposure right in camera. View and Capture both only seem to allow + or - 2EV for exposure compensation. 

Lots of reasons for that.  Color fidelity suffers if you are off by more than 2 stops, and you can introduce other problems (color shifts in the shadows, etc.)  if you try to push more than that.

I stuck the sb900 on the camera lastnight. seems to work really well in full auto mode. I'll work on learning to use the flash once I learn to use the camera.  ;D The built in flash does it's job ok but bouncing it off the ceiling is nice, lights up the whole room. Glad I got the sb900. I didn't get to try it off camera. I might try that tonight.

Bounce flash typically provides much softer light than direct flash, and allows you to balance fill with ambient much more effectively.  Yup, bounce is good.  I don't have the SB900 yet, but it seems like a really nice flash.  (But upgrading from the SB-800 is lower on my priority list right now.)

Glad you're having fun!

girod

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Re: The NEW Nikon D7000 - Good news / Bad news
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2010, 08:46:46 PM »
Chris,

First, a disclaimer: I am an occasional amateur hobbyist that started only 2.5 years ago with only one DSLR (D700).

For Nikon's Flash System: http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/

I'm sure you've read Keith's "Understanding and Controlling Exposure" in this site. Find out where's Zones V and VII in your D7000's light-meter using spotmeter when shooting in 14-bit NEF. The fun is when you're the artist and not the camera.

Remember the 3 things that you cannot change in postprocessing: focus, DOF and motion blur.

Nikon's Focus System is very fulfilling - you'll be very unhappy if you don't master it.

In photography, there is no reason to "disconnect" capture, postprocessing and ouput (print or web).